The Order of Saint Joachim

Our Confrere Chevalier Arjeh van der Sluis KJ raised the issue of swords. A sword was an integral part of a Knight's uniform and a powerful symbol of his ability to dispense justice and protect the weak and afflicted.

The question is, would our members be interested in seeing the re-introduction of a sword as an optional purchase item for knights of the Order? These would be military quality swords, likely in the price range of $250 to $400, possibly from this supplier: http://www.wkc-collection.de/english/indexde.html

For a better idea of the style of sword being considered, attached is a photo. It is typical German style in keeping with our Order's roots. This model is the deluxe at a price of $425 US. There is another version at $350 with a black handle. It is made by WKC - an established military sword maker.

This is still in the early planning stages, so any and all comments welcomed.

The black handled version.

Dear Brothers,

many of us consider, how they are to come to a uniform. Our Australian brothers wish themselves a white tropical execution.

There isn't a sword two steps too far?

The sword found by you comes from my hometown. My road is designated after one the firm founder. One calls not in vain Solingen the blade city (Klingenstadt). Father and grandfather carried swords of this company as soldiers.

I must say, that sword and scabbard (in white) looks quite appropriate for our Order. Certainly has my vote. I personally think it would look good with the uniform and is nicer than the cheaper version.

Cheers,

Sean

Fraternal Greetings

Would our Right Honourable military brethren advise on a question of protocol - would a sword still be worn with a mess jacket??

If my memory serves, swords are worn on parade but mess jackets are worn at high table, with ribbons, sashes and adornments worn at social gathering where 'Dignitaries' are in attendance

Good Day Everyone.

According to Canadian Dress Regulations, when wearing mess dress a sword is not worn.

Cheers,

Arjeh

Fraternal Greetings and thanks

Perhaps then a happy medium could be reached.

His Excellency the Grand Master be petitioned that mess jackets, complete with medals, ribbons and adornments be worn at high table, especially when honoured by His Excellency attendance, but preceded by his Grand Sword bearer (if such one exists).

Each officer according to rank and seniority will follow carrying his baton of office.

On all other occasions i.e at Commanderie, mess jackets will be worn.

For our Most Rev Fathers and Grand Herald a suitable surplise or tabard of our Order.

Too ostentatious maybe - I humbly solicit our Principles consideration and advice

Thanks again, Arjeh, Salutations

Fraternal Greetings and thanks

Perhaps then a happy medium could be reached.

His Excellency the Grand Master be petitioned that mess jackets, complete with medals, ribbons and adornments be worn at high table, especially when honoured by His Excellency attendance, but preceded by his Grand Sword bearer (if such one exists).

Each officer according to rank and seniority will follow carrying his baton of office.

On all other occasions i.e at Commanderie, mess jackets will be worn.

For our Most Rev Fathers and Grand Herald a suitable surplise or tabard of our Order.

Too ostentatious maybe - I humbly solicit our Principles consideration and advice

Thanks again, Arjeh, Salutations

Hello!

As a very new supporting member (paperwork should be in the hands of the Grand Master at the time of writing), I have read this thread with interest. I am in year 35 of my military career in the Canadian Forces (5 yrs reserve time and 30 years of regular time) and I am currently on an exchange tour in the UK.

Having an official pattern of sword is definitelyan appropriate measure to take and should be a prominent order of business. The suggested version looks great and the manufacturer is also a reliable one (I have an RCD commemorative sabre from that firm and it is a thing of beauty).

One or two observations:

Arjeh has very correctly commented that swords are not worn with Mess Dress. If the Order is to adopt the wearing of swords for certain occasions, they could be used during assemblies and ceremonies outside of church (except for very specific players, e.g. guidon / colour guards, pall bearers, side arms are usually left under guard at the door or in the vestibule).

The usual dress for formal occasions and items like court swords in the day time would be morning dress (court dress or court uniforms if the event is at a royal or vice-royal event). The key is that the sword is generally worn with No. 1 orders (either full dress or service dress with gloves and medals). White tie would be more appropriate than dinner jackets for evening wear with swords.

All of this being said, a sword can also be an important personal and symbolic keepsake. Swords are often used as presentations and awards for outstanding service. They may also be a symbolic ornament at ceremonies and assemblies. They do not necessarily have to be an item of dress.

There are also different patterns of sword belts and sashes (depending on how one used to use the sword, cavalry sword belts are different from infantry), but that is a matter for another day.

Fraternally,
Jack